Sarytis tarihshy jәne sarabdal sayasatker Yuriy Nikolaevich Afanasiev esimi jalpaq Resey júrtyna ghana emes, әlem halqyna keninen mәshhýr. KSRO-ny qayta qúru iydeologtarynyng biri retinde kenjelep qalghan Reseyding órkeniyet, demokratiyalyq damu jolyn tandauyna yqpal jasap, sandaghan jyldar boyy jan ayamay ter tókken biregey túlgha songhy jyldary alyp kórshi eldegi ruhany keri ketu men Kremli biyligindegilerding óktemdikteri jәne óreskel sayasatyna jýregi syzdaytynyn ýnemi aityp keledi. Ashy shyndyq qana oryn alghan qatelikterden aryltaryna eshqashan kýmәn keltirgen emes.
Tayauda Yu.Afanasiev "Novaya gazetanyn" tilshileri Sergey Asriyans jәne Ludmila Rybinamen keninen súhbattasyp, Reseyding ekijýzdilik pen danghoylyq, zúlymdyq batpaghyna belshesinen batqanyn jәne búghan el biyligi tikeley aiypty ekenin ashyq, әri batyl mәlimdedi. ("Novaya gazeta", №30, 06.06.2009 j.). Reseyding ruhany azghyndauyna kýn sayyn kuә bolyp jýrgen biregey túlgha, bedeldi qogham qayratkeri Yu.Afanasievting shynshyl pikirleri eshkimdi bey-jay qaldyra qoymaytyny ayan. Sondyqtan osy súhbatty "Týrkistan" gazeti oqyrmandarynyng nazaryna úsynudy jón sanap otyrmyz.

Sarytis tarihshy jәne sarabdal sayasatker Yuriy Nikolaevich Afanasiev esimi jalpaq Resey júrtyna ghana emes, әlem halqyna keninen mәshhýr. KSRO-ny qayta qúru iydeologtarynyng biri retinde kenjelep qalghan Reseyding órkeniyet, demokratiyalyq damu jolyn tandauyna yqpal jasap, sandaghan jyldar boyy jan ayamay ter tókken biregey túlgha songhy jyldary alyp kórshi eldegi ruhany keri ketu men Kremli biyligindegilerding óktemdikteri jәne óreskel sayasatyna jýregi syzdaytynyn ýnemi aityp keledi. Ashy shyndyq qana oryn alghan qatelikterden aryltaryna eshqashan kýmәn keltirgen emes.
Tayauda Yu.Afanasiev "Novaya gazetanyn" tilshileri Sergey Asriyans jәne Ludmila Rybinamen keninen súhbattasyp, Reseyding ekijýzdilik pen danghoylyq, zúlymdyq batpaghyna belshesinen batqanyn jәne búghan el biyligi tikeley aiypty ekenin ashyq, әri batyl mәlimdedi. ("Novaya gazeta", №30, 06.06.2009 j.). Reseyding ruhany azghyndauyna kýn sayyn kuә bolyp jýrgen biregey túlgha, bedeldi qogham qayratkeri Yu.Afanasievting shynshyl pikirleri eshkimdi bey-jay qaldyra qoymaytyny ayan. Sondyqtan osy súhbatty "Týrkistan" gazeti oqyrmandarynyng nazaryna úsynudy jón sanap otyrmyz.

Meninshe, Obama bizding elge óte manyzdy habar jetkizuge keldi. Bizge deyin ol osy habardy Europada - Praga qalasynda, músylman әleminde - Kair uniyversiytetinde taratsa, endi mine, Reseyde - Mәskeude jetkizip otyr (Barak Obamanyng 2009 jylghy 7-shildede Mәskeudegi Resey ekonomikalyq mektebinde sóilegen sózining tolyq núsqasymen "Novaya gazetanyn" saytynan tanysugha bolady - Red.). Amerikadan jetken búl habargha nelikten Reseyde eshkim qúlaq qoymay otyr? Óz basym, osy súraqqa jauaptyng ózi qazirgi zamandaghy әldebir jýie retinde de, sonday-aq qoghamdyq qúrylym retinde de Reseyding ishki mazmúnyn tolyqtay әshkerelep beredi dep sanaymyn. Búl asa manyzdy jayt, óitkeni kez kelgen jýie, tipten mehanikalyq jýiening ózi de, eger ol syrttan keletin signaldar men habardy qabyldaugha nemese ishki týisikten taralghan osynday eskertulerge jiti mәn beruge qabiletsiz bolsa, onda múnday jýiening ýlken qater aldynda túrghany.

- Qozghaushy kýsh qyzyp kete me?

- IYә, sóitip aqyr sonynda quatty dýmpu oryn alyp, jýie birjolata kýireydi. Biraq, Resey múnday eskertulerdi ýnemi elep-eskerusiz qaldyrugha әdettengen. Mәselen, Pikalevo. Onda ne bolghany barshagha mәlim: qalanyng negizgi dini bolyp túrghan zauyttardyng biri toqtady. Búghan nazar audaru ýshin júmysshylar kýre joldy jauyp tastamaq bolyp әurelendi. Ol jerge premier-ministr arnayy kelip, sosyn... Deripaskany jerden alyp, jerge salsyn. Osylaysha Putin Pikalevodan jetken eskertuge, Reseyding osynday birjaqty órkendegen barlyq qalashyqtarynyng ortaq qasireti retindegi dabylgha kónil audarmay, jaghdaydy jalang qolmen rettemekshi. Al onday qalalar 500-ge juyq bolsa she, әri әrqaysysynda 50-den 500 myngha deyin adam bolsa she, toqeterin aitsam, Resey degenimizding ózi osy qalashyqtar. Biraq, Pikalevodan jetken búl dabyl ishinara jayt dep qana qabyldandy.
Taghy bir mysal - Cherkizov bazary. Búl - jyldar boyy tamyr jayghan kontrabanda, sybaylas jemqorlyq, әlgi qúqyq qorghau organdary dep atalatyndardyng qoltyghynyng astynda keninen qanat jayghan qylmystyq toptar. Yaghni, qúqyq qorghau organdarynyng ózi, shyn mәnisinde, Reseydi jappay jaylaghan, birjola auyzdyqtaghan qylmystyq qúrylymdardyng naq ózi bolyp shyqqany ghoy. Búl - kezekti eskertu, tipti, janúshyrghan dabyl, alayda búghan qúlaq qoyar eshkim tabylar emes.
Reseydegi instituttar - keden, prokuratura, shekara әskerleri, milisiya deytinder qúqyq qorghau mindetterin atqarady dep sanalady, al shyn mәninde әlgiler qylmystyq funksiyalardy atqaratyn bolghany da. Solardyng qúryghyndaghy memleket odan әri ómir sýre ala ma? Kez kelgen jýie - syrttan nemese ishten jetken habar men eskertulerdi qabyldaugha qabiletsiz mehanikalyq, organikalyq nemese әleumettik jýieni ómirsheng dep esepteuge bola ma?
Ári-beriden song Cherkizov bazary nemese Pikalevo syndy mysaldardy qalaghanynsha tize beruge bolady.
Bashqúrtstanda tútas qala - Blagoveshensk túrghyndaryn OMON-nyng úrdajyqtary týgeldey ayamay tayaqqa jyqqan oqigha tirkeldi. Qazirgi zamanda tútas qalany osylaysha jazalaudy kózge elestetu mýmkin be? Al Reseyde eshkim eshtene kórmeydi, eshtene estimeydi. Shyndyghynda búl auyr qasiret qoy, qanday súmdyq qasiret desenizshi!
Búdan da jantýrshigerlik mysaldar jetkilikti. Mәselen, Resey qorys batpaghyna birjola belsheden batqan permanentti soghys jayyna keleyikshi. Men Cheshenstandaghy soghysty ghana aityp otyrghanym joq, әdette "qyrghiy-qabaq" ta, ekonomikalyq ta, aqparattyq soghys ta bolady. Soghysushy tarap retinde Resey ýnemi jantalas ýstinde, al onyng soghysatyn elderi týrli atpen ataluy yqtimal. Cheshenstan, Ukraina, Belorussiya: Gruziyamen de әrtýrli jaghdayda ýzdiksiz kiykiljing bolyp kelemiz.

- Osy soghystardyng ara-arasynda Estoniyamen de júlqysyp ýlgerdik.
- IYә, osynday soghystar aralyghynda Estoniyamen jәne jalpy Baltyq jaghalauy elderimen júlqylasamyz.

- Ári basty dúshpanymyzdyng elesin kórgendey әrqashan shoshynamyz...
- Resey permanenttik soghys jaghdayynda ómir sýrip keledi. Ókinishke qaray, múny ol qasiret dep baghalap otyrghan joq. Al qazirgi zamanda ýnemi soghyspen ómir sýru mýmkin emes. Ózara qarym-qatynasta ýnemi óktemdikti basty qúral etu, qysym jasaumen ómir sýru asa qaterli.
AQSh preziydenti beybit ómir sýru jәne qazirgi jahandyq qúrylym jónindegi óz týsinigi turaly әlemning asa manyzdy nýktelerinen habar taratty. Amerikadan estilgen búl habardyng leytmotiyvi: әlem osyghan deyin kýn keshken núsqamen ómir sýruge bolmaydy. Shúghyl ózgerister qajet, әri búl ózgerister ýstirt emes, teren, fundamentalidi bolugha tiyis. Amerika Obamany osy ýshin preziydent etip saylaghan. Amerika týbirli ózgerister ýshin dauys berdi. Álem ózgerdi. Biz de ózgeruge tiyispiz. Ol ol ma, biz ózgeristerding aldyn alugha úmtyluymyz kerek. Múnyng ekonomikagha da, qarjy, әleumettik qatynastargha da qatysy bar. Obama osy jayynda tilge tiyek etti. Osy jerdegi barlyq sóilegen sózderinde ol "qyrghiy-qabaq soghys" jaghdayyn birjola toqtatugha shaqyrdy. Birneshe ret mysal keltirdi. Berlin qabyrghasy qúlady, "qyrghiy-qabaq soghys" ayaqtaldy, júrttyng bәri ómir janasha qúrylady dep ýmittengen. Ókinishke qaray, olay bolatyn emes. Álemdi eki jýiege bólgen nyshan birjola qúrydy, al bólinu joyylghan joq.
AQSh pen Resey arasyndaghy teketires, senimsizdik pen seziktenu qatynastary ýzdiksiz jalghasuda.
Obama Amerika әldekimderge jýretin joldy núsqaudan mýldem aulaq dep eki-ýsh ret qaytalady. Ol: "Ústanugha tiyisti qúndylyqtardy biz bilemiz, biraq onday qúndylyqtardy ózgelerge tanghymyz kelmeydi", - dedi. Bush býkil әlemge demokratiyany keng janggha qúshtar boldy. Obama Amerika qanday da bir ómir sýru erejeleri men memleket qúrylymyn kýshtep tanbaydy dep basa aituda. Búl - jana baghyt. Múny esty biluimiz kerek edi.
Nelikten tas kereng bolyp qaldyq?

- Yuriy Nikolaevich, Obama AQSh-ty ózining jeke biyligindegi el dep sanamaydy. Al bizding basshylar Reseydi osylay dep esepteydi. Sondyqtan da premier-ministr ózin ótkennen qol ýze almay otyr degen Obamanyng pikirine ókpesi qara qazanday boldy.
- Putin múny jeke óz basyn aiyptau dep qabyldady. Ol múnyng tasasynan býkil әlem jaqsy biletin nәrseni kóre almay mysy qúruda. Resey rasynda da "qarsy bitken bútaq" bolyp qaluda. Jәne ol múnday keyipke bir býgin týsken joq.

- Sizding sózinizding dәleli bizde 400 jyl búryn bastalghan edi...
- 500 jyl búryn, tipten odan әriden bastaldy desek oryndy. "Resey ózine jetken habarlardy nelikten estimeydi?" degen saualgha jauaptyng negizgi arqauy da osynda. Óitkeni, ol esty almaydy, estigisi kelmeydi jәne estuge qabiletsiz. Mine, mәsele osynda! Reseyge tәn, erekshe, auqymy tar, dәlirek aitsaq, tek Reseyge ghana tәn abyroysyz mәdeniyetting tiypi tosqauyl bolyp keledi.
Ásili, eki polusting ortasyndaghy ornyndy adaspay tabugha tiyissin. Tarazynyng bir basynda - jaqsylyq, ekinshi jaghynda - zúlymdyq. Barlyq adamdar, qogham men elder óz ornyn osy eki aralyqtan izdeydi. Imperiya men halyq. Biylik pen túrghyndar. Eng aqyrynda, qara men aq. Nemese - biz jәne olar. Baghytyn tandap, solay qaray ilgerileydi.
Álem tandaghan baghyt - bir jaghynan dәstýrshildik, ekinshi jaghynan - liyberalizm. Resey eki arada qúr salaqtap túr. Yaki, әlem osy eki polus arasyndaghy óz ornyn tabu ýshin izdenis ýstinde qayshylyqtardy, aq pen qara, jaqsylyq pen zúlymdyq arasyndaghy antagonizmdi sheshu amaldaryn izdep tynbaydy. Ári osyghan deyin bolmaghan jana maghyna izdep tabady. Al Resey bolsa jana mazmún izdep taba alatyn týri joq, esesine eskini sәl-pәl boyamalap nemese atyn basqasha atap, jananyng ornyna úsynumen qara ter bop keledi.
Dәstýrshildik degenimiz ne? Eng qysqa anyqtama beretin bolsaq, búl - ózgertilmeytin qúndylyqtardy qalpynda saqtau negizinde jana qúndylyqtar týzu tәsili. Resey nelikten Obamany esty almady? Óitkeni, Reseyding ishki mazmúny - janalyqtargha kese kóldeneng túryp, qayta týleu jolynda ýnemi әure-sarsangha týsu, bizding biyik úranymyz - janany jórgeginde túnshyqtyru. Búryn qalay bolsa, bәrin de sol kýiinde qaldyru.
Yalta jýiesine say tirlik keshtik delikshi. Oghan deyin Versali jýiesining negizimen ómir sýrdik: әskery bloktar qúrdyq, teketiresterdi úiymdastyrdyq. Biz mynamen birgemiz - mynaghan qarsymyz destik. Búl qalay retteletin. Áriyne, soghys arqyly. Birinshi jahandyq soghys boldy (qúmarymyz qanghan joq), Ekinshisin úiymdastyrdyq, ýshinshisin - "qyrghiy-qabaq soghysty" dýniyege әkeldik. Bәri de osyghan negizdeldi. Al Obama bolsa: búlay jalghastyrugha bolmaydy, janasha ómir sýreyik dep shyryldaydy! Áytkenmen, Resey oghan qalay qúlaq qoymaqshy? Búl degeniniz jana qúndylyqtar týzilip, negizdeletin, búrynghy eki mazmún qaqtyghysyp, teketires nәtiyjesinde mýldem basqa, jana mazmún qalyptasatyn sala ghoy. Onyng ýstine búrynghy ústanymdar: birinshisi de, ekinshisi de kýresinde qalugha tiyis. Al bizde búnday úghym atymen joq, ebimiz kelmeydi, dilimizge, psihologiyalyq, әleumettik әdetimizge sinbegen. Eng bastysy, sayasy әdetimizde mýldem joq. Tәjiriybe jinaqtaghan emespiz - kenestik uaqytta da, әsirese patsha uaqytynda da ol kereksiz bolatyn. Berdyaevting aitqanynday, Resey aralyq mәdeniyetten maqúrym. Orystyng klassikalyq әdebiyetining de barshasy osy turaly aitady. Barlyghy da, mineki, mynaday adam, mynaday qauym, orta qalyptasty, dep dabyl qaghady jәne búlar qalghan әlemge qater tóndire qarsy shyghady delingen.
"Resey Obamany nelikten estimeydi?" degenimde men mәdeniyetting tiypin menzep otyrmyn. Putinning barlyq sayasy oiyndary osynday mәdeniyet tiypine negizdelgen. Onyng payymdauynsha, Resey demokratiya ýshin pisip-jetilgen joq, eger avtoritarlyq biylik bolmasa, Resey bir pәste búlghaq pen býlinshilikting batpaghyna sýngiydi. Bizding tizgin ústaghandar ózderining biylik basynda boluyn filosofiyalyq túrghydan osylaysha týsindirmek bolyp әure-sarsan. Qazirgi biylik jýiesi ózderin reformatorlar dep ataghanmen, alayda әsire dәstýrshildikten bas tartqysy kelmeydi. Obama, kelinizder, janarayyq, uaqyt ýnine say jana sapalyq dengeyge qalay qol jetkizetinimizdi oilastyrayyq deydi. Oghan bizding jauabymyz shәy ishu, ottyghyna shonqayma etik kiygizilgen samauryn, marmelad pen uyldyryq, sonday-aq osynyng bәrin jayghaytyn pendening qyzyl ónirli kóilegi bolyp tabyldy. Mine, jauabymyzdyng týri. Búdan asqan dәstýrshildik bolar ma?! Áriyne, samauryngha etik tiygizbey-aq qoygha bolatyn edi, onsyz da orystyq әdet ekeni beseneden belgili. Biraq, mindetti týrde etik kiygizuimiz kerek qoy. Ne bolsa da әbden túqyrtyp, absurdqa ainaldyrugha tiyispiz ghoy...

- Búl sanaly әreket dep oilaysyz ba?
- Mening oiymsha, búghan esh kýmәn joq. Obama asqaq ýnmen: "Búdan әri búlay ómir sýruge bolmaydy, janany oilastyrayyq", - deydi, al biz oghan: "Naq osylay ómir sýremiz",- deymiz. Qarama-qarsy túramyz. Al Gruziya - sonyng kerzi etiktey mysaly. Barsha әlemge: osylay ómir sýrdik, qalay qalasaq solay ómir sýremiz degen isharatymyz. Eshkimning eshqanday kýmәni qalmauy ýshin úshaqtarmen, zymyrandarmen ayamay tópeleymiz, qoldan kelgen barlyq tәsilmen soqqylaymyz.
...Biz syrtqy nemese ishki habarlargha, tipti, búl habarlar dabylgha ainalsa da, nazar audarmaytyn jýie turaly, onday jýiening ómirsheng emestigi turaly әngimeden bastap edik. Resey hәl ýstinde me? Biraq, meninshe, búl bolyp jatqan oqighalargha shynshyl, eng rasionalistik kózqaras qana emes, turasyn aitar bolsam, búl optimistik kózqarastyng naq ózi. Bolyp jatqan oqighalardy qaz-qalpynda kóre bilu - dúrys sheshim qabyldaugha jol ashatyn alghyshart. Eger múny kóre bilmesek, nemese aiqyn nәrseni qaperimizge ilmesek, onda qasiret qúshaghynda qalarymyz aiqyn. Eger Resey halqynyng basym bóligimen birge biylik te dәstýrshildik tarapqa qosylsa, onda quatty reaksiyalyq kýsh bel alady.
Nelikten osynday jayttar oryn aluda? Bizding orystyq tarihymyz osylay qalyptasty, jýzdegen jyldar boyy kýn sayyn ensesin kótere almaytyn ezgide bolghan júrt boyyna beyimdelu qabiletin sinirdi. Búl eshqanday qúndylyqtarsyz, erejesiz, ruhaniyatsyz kýn keshuge beyimdelu bolatyn.

- Eger bәrine de enjarlyq biylegende úshaqtyng ózin-ózi qúrtatyn jýiesi sekildi tetikti basyp qalsa, odan әri ne bolmaqshy?!
- Tragediya oryn alady. Biraq myna júrt mardymsyzgha qanaghattanyp ýirengen. Ózining iyinine әldene ilse, basynda baspanasy bolsa jetip jatyr. Eshqanday qúndylyqtardyn, eshqanday qosymsha iygilikter, eshqanday demokratiya, parlament, erkin baspasóz, saylaudyng esh qajeti joq. Tipti, múnyng bәri nege әkelip tireytinin bilmey qorqady. Sondyqtan da Putinning әsire dәstýrshil biyligi adasqan kópting kónilin tap basuda. Búlar Resey júrty shynymen temirdey tәrtipti, avtoritarlyqty, kýshteudi, sonymen birge HHI ghasyr dýniyege әkelgen imitasiyalyq demokratiyany qajetsinedi dep sanaydy. Júrtqa osylar jәne imitasiya jetedi deydi.

- Resey qaytar joldan birjola qol ýzgen joq pa degen saualgha siz jauap berdi dep esepteymiz be?
- Resey búl nýkteden bayaghyda ótip ketti. Órkeniyet tiypi retinde Resey ólim auzynda ekenine esh kýmәnim joq. Mәsele múnyng qay uaqta oryndalatyndyghynda. Búl aitarlyqtay úzaq uaqytqa sozyluy yqtimal. Bәlkim, zúlmat oryn ala da qoymaytyn bolar. Jalpy, qazir kýn sayyn tynysh qana ólip bara jatqanymyzgha kýmәn joq. Men demografiyalyq kórsetkishterdi aityp otyrghanym joq, zady jyl sayyn milliongha juyq adam ajal qúshuda. Ruhany problemalardy menzep otyrmyn. Adamdar ózara aiuandardan әrmen kýn keship keledi. Agressiyashyldyq otbasylardy da jaulap barady, búl kýieui men әielining arasyndaghy ghana emes, tipti, jas balalardyng arasynda da aiqyndalyp keledi. Adamdar bolashaqqa sene almaydy.
Al qaytyp oralmaytyn nýkte turaly aitsaq, onda sharq úrular jalghasatyn boluy da mýmkin. Biraq, búl qazirgi Resey emes, ómirlik qaghidalaryn qayta qaraugha qoly jetken, janarghan Resey bolashaqqa baghyt ústaydy. Árbir orys adamy býgin ómir sýrip otyrghan orys adamynan basqasha bolugha tiyis. Ol ýshin eng әueli adamdardyng bir bóligi, ózderin oilay biletinder legine qosatyndar búl Reseydi bolashaqqa sýireuge bolmaytynyn jany auyryp, kýizelip, naqty mysalmen sóz etudi ýirenuge tiyistiligin týsingeni jón. Eger biz býgingi Reseydi keleshekke sýireytin bolsaq, onda Reseyge de, әlemge de óte jaman bolmaqshy.

Tәrjimalaghan Janabek ShAGhATAY,

«Týrkistan» gazeti, 13.08.2009